The Alto Knights, Barry Levinson’s gritty crime drama detailing the turf war between the real-life New York gangsters Frank Costello and Vito Genovese, comes with serious mob-movie pedigree. It’s led by The Godfather Part II’s Robert De Niro, who plays the two feuding bosses; was written by GoodFellas’ Nick Pileggi; produced by Casino’s Irwin Winkler; and, of course, directed by Bugsy’s Levinson. The film shows Frank and Vito’s relationship mouldering like weeks-old gabagool, as the former seeks to distance himself from his shady past, while the latter works to expand his drug empire. Here, Levinson discusses the narrative allure of organised crime, creating spontaneity on set and how Hollywood has changed since the 1970s.
YASMIN OMAR: What was the creative impetus behind having Robert De Niro play two roles in the film?
BARRY LEVINSON: After reading a draft, our producer Irwin Winkler said, ‘What do you think of Bob playing both roles?’ We thought, we’re talking about one of the great actors in the history of cinema, let’s see if he feels comfortable to step up to that challenge. We had a phone call with him, and he said yes. It was as simple as that.
The Alto Knights (2025)
YO: What were the practicalities of shooting one actor in two parts in terms of VFX, body doubles, scheduling etc.?
BL: It turned out not to be that complicated. Bob’s characters, Frank and Vito, have two major scenes together. We shot their first sequence – where they meet outside the glass front of a candy store, walk inside and have a sitdown – over a two-day period, doing one character one day and the other the next. There are technical aspects you have to work out, but you also don’t want it to feel like the technology is running the show. To give the impression that Bob’s really talking to another person he picked an actor he could relate to who played Frank then Vito, instead of having a script supervisor read the lines off camera. That way, a real actor was there to help define the movements he’s playing against.
YO: Why are we, as a culture, still so fascinated by stories of organised crime?
BL: I think it’s because we’re looking at human behaviour, and we want to explore that. How does organised crime happen? How do these people talk with one another? How do they think? Rather than watching the mafia run around shooting people, you want to understand how they believe they should function, the right and wrong of it all. We have a sequence in the film where a lot of the mafia guys are in a club watching the congressional hearings on organised crime, and they think that these US elected officials are basically as corrupt as they’re accused of being. If done well, you don’t have to sit there and agree with them, but you can see how they’re motivated.
YO: A lot of your collaborators on this film – Robert De Niro, Nick Pileggi, Irwin Winkler – have made a number of classic gangster movies over the decades, and their involvement invites associations with other mafia flicks. How did you make The Alto Knights feel fresh?
BL: At least as I see it, a story with this design and focus hasn’t necessarily been done in the past. We’re talking about a span of time, and dealing with two rather engaging characters with totally different sensibilities – Vito is aggressive, impulsive and violent; Frank is deliberate and thoughtful – who keep growing further and further apart as they go along.
The Alto Knights (2025)
YO: You’ve collaborated with De Niro on a number of projects over the years, including Sleepers [1996], Wag the Dog [1997] and The Wizard of Lies [2017]. How has your working relationship evolved during that time?
BL: It’s always fun and entertaining. He’s such a terrific actor and he doesn’t take it lightly. He’s very well prepared – we’ll discuss character tweaks weeks in advance of shooting – and yet he allows for spontaneity. He knows what he wants to do and, because he’s done so much research, when the camera rolls occasionally other things pop up and we see where it goes. If it goes too far off course, then we don’t use it, but sometimes, if you’re that prepared, something new happens and boom, you’ve got a real interesting take.
YO: Did any of these spontaneous moments make it into The Alto Knights?
BL: Well, there’s a scene when Vito is with [his wife] Anna [played by Kathrine Narducci] in a restaurant, which we shot quite late in the schedule. Before Bob came to set, I looked over the scene and realised that some of the lines were used earlier, so we might be slightly repetitious with moments we’d already got in the can. I told Bob this, then said, ‘Maybe she starts asking you questions about when you were younger, because we haven’t dealt with that, and she makes comments.’ That scene is basically two actors making it up on the spot. They knew so much about their characters, and that familiarity allowed them to just talk. I think it turned out to be quite an interesting scene.
The Alto Knights (2025)
YO: You’re renowned for creating this kind of loose atmosphere on set for your actors. How do you achieve that in practice?
BL: To make the environment as free as possible I don’t want it to feel too mechanical. If I suddenly say to an actor, ‘No, as you go over here, you have to pick up the glass, then you go there, then you have to stand by the window…’ they’re thinking about that and the personality gets a little lost. It has to feel as if it’s all being made up. That’s what makes us sit up in our seats and wonder, what is he going to do? What is she going to say? What is going to happen? I try to create the atmosphere as if there’s nothing except the people in this situation. Otherwise I find it artificial. There is no one way to direct, that’s for sure. But this works for me.
The Alto Knights (2025)
YO: How has Hollywood changed since you started working in the industry in the Seventies?
BL: It’s changed a lot in my opinion. There used to be the head of the studio, and basically when that person liked something, they made the movie. Now it’s much more of a committee, all these different people looking at spreadsheets of how well this or that movie did, as if they’re going to find the key to what an audience wants. What you’re seeing now is a shrinking of subject matter in an attempt to find the next big hit. I personally think that’s not a good way to proceed because it limits the audience. You may be working to one portion of the audience, but then you’re ignoring the other audience.
If you keep turning them off, you’re getting a smaller slice of the pie. I personally think that’s not a road to go down, but that’s the road they go down. They’re spending a couple $100 million to make a movie. It’s a high-stakes situation, as opposed to making films at a more economical price that cover a wider spectrum of storytelling. Now we’re seeing a shift taking place. The studios are basically just going for the big hit, and the independent world is taking their business elsewhere, and surviving and making a profit. We’re looking at a fundamental change in the marketplace. Where it’s going to go and how it’s going to play out, I don’t know.
The Alto Knights (2025)
Years ago, when I was working with Mel Brooks, he wanted to do Silent Movie [1976], which was a silent movie in the Seventies. A silent movie, how crazy an idea is that?! We finished the screenplay, I went downstairs to give it to the head of the studio, who was Alan Ladd Jr (they called him Laddie). Then we were hanging around. We went to lunch. We came back. We were talking. We were about to leave when Mel got a phone call. ‘Come downstairs. Laddie wants to see you.’ Mel returned 20 minutes later and said, ‘OK, it’s a go picture.’ So between 11 in the morning and two in the afternoon, they decided to make Silent Movie. I don’t care what film you have nowadays, you’re not getting it an OK on a script in three hours! And so that’s a fundamental change as one example. But look, the business continues to change, and you have to be hopeful that it finds its direction and continues to be successful.
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